tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13617569.post1978501368332943339..comments2024-03-27T02:13:58.088-07:00Comments on Integral Options Cafe: More on Why the New Atheists Will Failwilliam harrymanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06981478282688361274noreply@blogger.comBlogger3125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13617569.post-12759711717553674052007-10-01T23:59:00.000-07:002007-10-01T23:59:00.000-07:00Thanks, Bill.How different things might have been ...Thanks, Bill.<BR/><BR/>How different things might have been if America had gone in to save the Burmese, instead of going in to Iraq. The Burmese would have greeted us as liberators.<BR/><BR/>Knowing that we would never have gone into Burma proves Greenspan's point: It's the oil.<BR/><BR/>So the people of Burma are abandoned and everyone hopes the well-esconsed junta will become milder over the course of decades. Eventually, the government of Burma will agree to be nicer to its citizens in exchange for having any remaining trade sanctions lifted. And then everyone -- the junta, the people of Burma, the Americans -- live happily ever after.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13718601770472939313noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13617569.post-7464542321542874132007-10-01T18:50:00.000-07:002007-10-01T18:50:00.000-07:00Hey Tom,I think, in part, the monks did stand up b...Hey Tom,<BR/><BR/>I think, in part, the monks did stand up because no one else would. They thought the could do so without retribution (because of their stature in the culture), but they were wrong.<BR/><BR/>Similarly, I think MLK and other religious leaders were needed for the civil rights movement -- without their "moral weight," I'm not sure the movement would have succeeded - same with Gandhi.<BR/><BR/>The difference, obviously, is in who they were standing up against. The US government was not about to slaughter MLK (well, not officially), nor was Britain in the Indian issue. China and Burma have no qualms about killing or "disappearing" dissidents.<BR/><BR/>I think the Burmese monks represent the "liberal" or progressive political cause in their nation, at least contrasted to the government, which is where I disagree with Buruma. Such liberalism is needed as much as the more "religious" courage he admires so much. One without the other usually goes badly awry.<BR/><BR/>I think the Burma situation is over for this round. Thousands of monks have been killed, many more beaten and/or imprisoned. The people are too scared to do anything else right now. Outside intervention never developed to save the situation.<BR/><BR/>Peace,<BR/>Billwilliam harrymanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06981478282688361274noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13617569.post-17162922404487168432007-10-01T09:34:00.000-07:002007-10-01T09:34:00.000-07:00Are the Burmese monks liberals, in the tradition o...Are the Burmese monks liberals, in the tradition of Gandhi and MLK?<BR/><BR/>I think Ian Buruma mischaracterizes the situation that developed in Burma in important ways. The monks stood up, not because others wouldn't, but because the moral authority they represented was thought to be too respected to be attacked. At first, at least, the monks stood up in place of others, though that changed as the others began locking arms in rings around the marching monks.<BR/><BR/>Gandhi and MLK had a different strategy. For them, there were people in authority whom they could address in distant, indirect ways. And, it was meaningful if the public was aroused with sympathy for Gandhi's/MLK's causes.<BR/><BR/>The Burma monks, sadly, have more of a Tiananmen Square situation going. The power they were addressing is fully ruthless and it doesn't matter what the citizens of Burma think.<BR/><BR/>So, are the people of Burma going to be abandoned, as the people of China were, or the people of North Korea? slaves in a totalitarian state that no one adequately confronts?<BR/><BR/>I guess I disagree with Buruma's idea that liberals are valuable miners' canaries before next bringing in the calvary. Heroes are necessarily <B>both</B> <I>properly</I> idealistic [and I don't mean of the mushy and unrealistic variety] AND courageous.<BR/><BR/>Is there a third act in this Burma situation? or will interest in what's going on there dissipate, leaving the people there to a dim future?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13718601770472939313noreply@blogger.com